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I want to ask you just
a little bit briefly.

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I know you've probably touched on this
topic literally thousands of times in

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your life. Um, but it continues
to get brought up in Kristen DM.

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And, uh, and in my ministry,
Leer Más

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I get asked all the time about
the book of Enoch. So, uh,

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we're not going to stay on it too long
just because I know it can be weary

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entire summer, but it's good stuff.

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It's kind of what you get
paid for. So, yeah. So, um,

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what is the book of you? Not just
in a general sense for those who,

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who might not know what it is.

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The book of Enoch is a
second temple composition,

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second temple literary work.

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Second temple period again in
round numbers is roughly, you know,

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500 BC into the first century.

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70 80 is the technical line because the
second tumble gets destroyed in 70, 80,

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but 500 BC to get around it to a hundred.

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Uh Ady and there are lots of Jewish
thinkers, you know, writing, uh,

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books during this period
it's between the testaments.

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That's why it's also called
the intertestamental period.

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And the book of Enoch is one of those,

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the oldest material we have for it
comes from the dead sea scrolls.

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There are fragments of
it in Aramaic there, uh,

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there's whole sections of it in
Greek that come from the same period,

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the Hellenistic period in secular
terms. But the second temple period,

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when it comes to Jewish history
and Enoch scholars referred

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to it as first Enoch, there are
actually three books of Enoch,

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but the book of Enoch as we popularly
discuss it is actually first ENR.

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And it is in part a sort of

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retelling or elaboration is probably
a better way to put it of the Genesis

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six story. Uh, really chapters
six through 16 is, uh,

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you know, an expansion of what happens
in the first four verses a Genesis six.

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There are lots of sections of
the book of Enoch scholars.

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Think they were different compositions
that eventually wound up in,

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into the one book there's, they're
astronomical sections, you know,

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doing astronomical astrological
stuff. There's, you know,

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eschatological material, apocalyptic
material under the world kind of material,

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the history going in cycles, you know,

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stuff like the book of
revelation and Daniel.

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So it's all those things kind
of rolled together, but it's,

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it's kinda mostly known
for the Genesis six stuff.

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Okay.

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The Bible talks about a
Nephilim and it seems like, uh,

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well, the book of your knock would
be referring to that segment of time

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chronologically. Um, what do you believe,

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or who do you believe in Nephilim?

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Where are you willing to be as bold as
to just straight up say they're just the

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hybrid race. It's just the hybrid race.

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Th they're just, just a
hybrid. No, I, I think as I,

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I wrote about this an unseen realm,

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I've got like five chapters
in that book on the,

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on the whole Nephilim giant
clans question. Yeah, I do.

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I think there are two ways, you know,
to parse what happens in Genesis six,

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one through four,

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neither of them have anything to do with
what we would call as the Seth EIT view

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that there's nothing
supernatural going on here.

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There's nothing divine or quasi divine
going on here. These are just, you know,

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people, sons of God are
just one line of people,

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daughters of men or another line of
people. I don't believe that at all.

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I don't think there's any
textual basis for both,

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either within scripture or certainly
externally to it. So that means, you know,

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my view would be that there's,

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there's some sort of supernatural
transgression going on here.

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The sons of God are divine beings.
They transgress, you know, the,

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the boundary of having an
earth that God has instituted.

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And the results of that
are, are the Nephilim. Uh,

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I do not think that the
term comes from [inaudible],

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which means to fall and for the
technical reasons, you know,

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you can read on unseen realm for that,

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but there's certainly a hostile here.
There's, there's certainly a, you know,

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evil and sinister, you know, so
you either you have two options,

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either what's being described,

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there is this literal cohabitation
and there you get your, you know,

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your hybrid race, you know, idea again,

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that it's kind of clunky terminology,

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but we'll just go with it for
the sake of the interview.

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The other way to look at it is
that the language of Genesis six,

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one through four, instead of
being literal sexual cohabitation,

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it refers to rival.

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God's raising up their own people,

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their own people groups kind of
like God did with Abraham and Sarah.

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There's no sexual language there,

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but God did something to
enable her to conceive.

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And then Israel was born out of that.

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So some would say that that's the
way we should look at Genesis six,

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one through four. And the
Nephilim, you know, are,

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are human because in scripture they
actually are called a Dom in one

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place. And the other word
is, um, what, um, is people,

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Adom is like humanity. So there's
some form of humanity. I mean,

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either of you can, can still refer
to them that way. Uh, one is again,

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this literalized hybrid idea and the
other is, you know, something that is,

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is human, but perceived as
being spawn of some rival gods.

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Right. You know, so again, the analogy
for the second view is Abraham and Sarah,

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you know, they're without any, any
true, like sexual cohabitation,

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both of those views are
on the table for me. Um,

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since I'm not the way I like to say
it to people is since I'm not a deity,

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I can't really speak with authority
on what DVDs can or cannot do. Uh,

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I think scripture does
present divine beings. Okay.

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Supernatural beings like angels, uh,
with full, you know, fleshly capability,

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right. They can eat, but they have
to, but yes, they can, you know,

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we have incidents where they grab people
or wrestle with Jacob. I mean, they,

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they have, they have physical
faculties, they can assume flesh.

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And in our Christian angel ology,
we tend to say things like,

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well only God can sort
of materialize flesh.

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And I, and I understand the reason
we say that because there's,

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there's one creator,

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but is that really on the same level as
like the creation of the heavens and the

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earth and B,

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why there is no verse that says that
some of their divine being can't do that,

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right. Can't be, you know,
transformative, you know,

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and I'm using that word deliberately
because of the way Satan has talked about

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transformed into an angel of light,
uh, and even, even, you know,

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physically present and corporeal,
you know, there, there there's no,

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there's no scriptural reason to say
that that can't be on the table. So,

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because I can't speak with
authority about how this works,

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uh, you know, to me, it's on the table,

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it's as viable as the other
view in my mind. Okay.

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What are your,

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what would your conclusion be then on
the historical reliability of the book of

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Enoch, do you believe this is
something that, um, reading, uh,

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the events outlined in New York and,
you know, descriptions of what happened?

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Do you think it gives us a relatively
reliable historical account

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of what actually took place in Genesis
six? Or do you think it's maybe, um,

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you know, Jewish mythology
blended in with that? Okay.

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I, I th I think, you know, the, the,

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the backdrop to all of
this of course is the,

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the Mesopotamian [inaudible] story,
which a lot of people aren't aware of,

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if they've read on scene realm,
they're aware of it because I,

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I deal with it there.
Um, and since they're,

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since both the, those, you know,

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the first four really I'll say the
first five verses in Genesis six are

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a polemic, you know, against, uh,

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a point of Mesopotamian
religion, you know,

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the way they view the
world and Enoch is as well.

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But he knock is much
more expansive in that,

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in regards to things like that,

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getting the black hats and the white
hats, you know, correct. You know,

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presenting this as a, as a transgression,
this is not something good.

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It's something sinister and evil
portraying it as something that, you know,

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did occur again. However, we, we parse
it however we understand it, but it, it,

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it did occur. There are supernatural
beings. They can interact with humans,

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that kind of thing. You know, I
think, I think he knocks fine.

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I questioned it in certain
details. Right. Um, you know,

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like the height of the giants and
then all that kind of stuff, you know,

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300 feet tall, I think
that's, you know, it's,

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it's kind of an obvious
absurdity, especially if you
take the literal, you know,

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cohabitation view that
that's just not working. Uh,

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if you want to go to the mythic view
there, okay. Then I guess you can,

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you can live with that. But, um,
there, there are things like that,

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that they don't really conform to, um,

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the kind of situation that
you could, that a genuine,

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that could genuinely happen and,
and have sort of a human, you know,

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be part of that story in, in any
sort of real sense, you know,

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a sense that would be connected to any
kind of, you know, real time event.

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So there are outliers like
that. Uh [inaudible] I, I don't,

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I don't consider you knock inspired. Um,

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I think we make a mistake when we think
that, um, for a book to be useful,

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it has to be inspired with people,
what people don't realize, you know,

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they'll latch onto Enoch second, Peter
two and Jude, you know, well, you know,

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you Knox mentioned there actually, you
know, shows up in a lot more places. Uh,

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that's why I wrote reversing hermana.

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It bleeds into a lot of things in the new
Testament, but so does the bail cycle.

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So does the wisdom of a minim obey in
Proverbs? You know, so does, you know,

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th the cure to Epic? I mean,

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there's all sorts of things that
biblical writers will quote,

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they will use to construct a story.

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And the reason they do these things is
they assume their readers will know what

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they're doing. There'll be, there'll
be picking up what they're laying down,

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because they're familiar with
the literature. You know,

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we don't walk around and say, well,

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I guess the bail cycle should be part
of the Bible now, I guess, you know,

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we don't do that, but
it's the people who are,

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are doing that with Enoch. Generally,

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aren't aware that this
other stuff, you know,

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works its way into scripture.
Right. So they they're, they're,

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they're missing a significant
part of the discussion. Right. Uh,

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when they go off on
this trajectory. Right.

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Okay. So you basically, um, answered it.

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How odd a Christian
view, the book of Enoch,

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just as kind of a useful
history or useful.

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I think we, I think we should read all
the stuff that biblical writers read,

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you know, drum roll. Okay.
Biblical writers, read books. Okay.

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What a profound thought. They
actually read books. Right.

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And they read books that
in one way or another,

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help them to make a point,

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help them to frame some
thing they wanted to say.

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So if we read that material, we will just,

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by definition become more intelligent
readers of scripture. Right.

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So, I mean, for that reason alone,

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we ought to spend time
with the material, just,

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just so that we can just become a
close reader of the tax team it's to

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the best of our ability right
now, beyond that, you know,

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if you drill down into
second temple literature,

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like Enoch and become really
familiar with it, you'll know why,

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in many cases,

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why a biblical writer found this or
that thought important and how it,

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it contributes to, um,

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it gives it explanatory power
to it, to a certain passage,

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you'll be able to sort of read,
you know, material through that,

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through the eyes of the original
writer and his original readers.

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Right. So Paul and Jesus and
James they're walking around,

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they were literate. They read books,
they read books. It's just shocking.

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I know. But yeah, they did more
than like watch YouTube videos

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look up memes on Instagram.

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More than contemplate their navels,
you know, or, or, or just do, you know,

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their, whatever their, their
job was. Right. You know, they,

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they were partakers of their own culture.
You know, they, they read material,

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they thought about what they were reading.
And again, in the Providence of God,

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you know, God makes use of the stuff
that, you know, we take in, uh,

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and they took in and it, it,
it helps them, you know, to,

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to write whatever it was,
they're going to write, you know,

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whatever God prepared, uh,

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for them to produce those things just
become a part of what's in the tank,

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so to speak.

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Right. So how might understanding, um,

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the content of the book of
Enoch and the supernatural, uh,

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interpretation of Genesis six, if we're
going to go with that, how might, um,

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these historical understandings help, uh,

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enrich and give deeper context
and meanings to the gospel,

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to the function of the cross and to
the purpose of Jesus being sent to her?

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Yeah, I think,

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I think we really miss out on the
multifaceted mission of Jesus.

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If we have the cross event only
be about fixing the problem of

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Genesis three. Uh, I've
said this many times, if,

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if you ask the average Christian, why
is the world the way it is, you know,

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in need a redemption, they'd
say, well, it's the fall.

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If you ask the average Israelite
or the average secretarial Jew,

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that's not the answer you
would get, you would say, well,

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there's actually three reasons why
the world is just so, you know, awful.

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It's Genesis three, it's just a six.
And it's what happens at Babel. So,

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you know, you, if you take that worldview
and again, that's easily demonstrable.

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If you study second temple literature,
that's just like a no brainer.

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If that's your view,

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then the Messiah very naturally
has come to fix all of that.

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Not just the one thing, but all of
it. And the Messiah is there for not,

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you know, naturally opposed
in all of those trajectories,

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all the things that he's supposed
to do. It, it, it really,

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you kind of miss out on some formative
passages and formative events

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in primeval history that set the stage
for what we like to call spiritual

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warfare. Um, you,

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you lose a lot of context for
that and spiritual warfare.

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Isn't just this thing that
happens detached from humanity.

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It's actually intrinsically intertwined
with humanity because you're talking

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about the Messiah needs to fix the
problem of death and estrangement from God

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that's Genesis three, the Messiah needs
to do something about depravity. Well,

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he came and he died and he Rose again,

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he ascended to the father and then he
sends the spirit to indwell, to combat,

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you know, depravity. And what about
the reclaiming of the nations? Well,

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that's what the great commission is about
to see the Jew first and also to the

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genitalia, all this stuff that I talk
about at length unseen realm, it,

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you lose a lot of the,

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the richness and the interconnectedness
of ideas presented in scripture that

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ultimately funnel back, not
only to Jesus, but really,

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really the intersection of heaven
and earth in fundamental ways

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that make us that really
the centerpiece kind of,

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kind of the reason for, you know, why,

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why God does what he does after the
fall. He doesn't scrap the plan.

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He doesn't wipe out, wipe the table clean.

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There is no plan B he's
committed to plan a,

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and that is to have a human family.

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And he is consistently
opposed by not only people,

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but also supernatural beings that takes
us back to the concept of imaging,

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which involves sharing attributes.
The image is not about attributes,

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but involves sharing attributes to carry
out the representation of God on earth.

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You know, well,

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we have plural language for the image
that involves God's heavenly family as

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well. So they, and we
had God, you know, we're,

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we're related in some way. And, and that
way is the sharing of God's attributes.

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You know, God's creating us, gives
them a status, gives us a status,

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gives us the tools to perform, you know,

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participate in the governance of the
spirit world and their case earthly world

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in our case. But that
means that they can rebel.

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I mean, th this what you
do actually matters, okay.

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What they, they can cause
problems. And they do,

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um, they, they consistently, you know,

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oppose what God wants to do. It's
not just that we're messed up.

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And we are it's that there's, there's
just moment by moment, day by day,

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you know, supernatural opposition to this,
right? All of this is part of, again,

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you know, the subtitle of unseen realm,
recovering the supernatural world,

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the Bible, right? This was like theology
one Oh one to an ancient person, right.

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This interconnectivity, both in
the good side and the bad side.

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So if you want to strip
out Genesis sex, right.

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And few people ever even have ever
heard of Deuteronomy 32, eight, nine,

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when it comes to Babel, you
wanna, you want, you're,

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you're missing two thirds of
the structuring, you know,

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to the whole context, you know,

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for what Paul talks about with
principalities and powers and whatnot.

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So I think it's pretty important. Again,

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you can still get the gospel
with all that, right. You know,

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but if you want to,

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if you want to feel and not just feel,

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but if you want to really move toward
having a good grasp of the meta-narrative

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of scripture, you've got
to have that stuff in it,

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or you just won't be able to do
it. Okay. I need to read that.